Support for the troops vs. support for the war.

[deltasmp]

I have a quick (or maybe not so quick) political question for everyone out there.

Background: I'm sure you've all seen articles on the war protesters this past week in D.C. One of the things about the protests that struck me was all these people saying that they supported the troops but opposed the war (including Ms. Fonda, who I think we all can agree did not "support the troops" during her infamous Hanoi trip). I'm wondering if this is just "Vietnam Guilt."

Now to the question. To set this up, I point out that:
1. It is an all volunteer armed forces.
2. Many of these volunteers signed up after the start of the Iraq war, demonstrating that they knew and accepted that they were going to go to war.
3. All of those re-enlisting know that it means that they will continue to see combat in both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars yet they are still re-enlisting.

It seems to me that it is pure hypocrisy to say that you support the troops but not the war, since many of the troops themselves have volunteered to enlist in the armed forces during the course of the war. Knowing this, how can anyone say that they support the troops but not support the cause that those same troops knowingly signed up for?

I'm asking for honest opinions here.

[BigMudder]

I Agree with you 100%, if you dont support the war than obviously you are not supporting the troops. Which, for anyone that who doesnt support the troops that is terrible. Even if you dont like the reasons were over there. Although right now there is so much talk going around how we shouldnt be in Iraq at all and I totally disagree with it. I think that if we wouldnt have gone over there, then there would have been another 9/11 or possibly something worse. I dont see how people can honestly say we shouldnt be at war. Our crazy enemies in the middle east and north korea over there want to kill americans, they hate us.

[mrbeerbaitnammo]

I will kind of call BS on both of you on this one yes it is Possible to not support the war , specifically Iraq but support the troops, its getting to the point where i dont support the war but i do the troops and if you wanna know how i am qualified to say that and stand behind it here is my normal signature block..............

SGT Timothy C Irwin
1 ID Big RED ONE Combat Veteran
KOSOVO 2002-2003
IRAQ 2004-2005
UNITED STATES ARMY
13 Years and Still Proudly Serving

and one more comment, if you are not , were not or will not join and serve just SHUT THE **** UP cuz your opinion means nothing, if you dont have the balls to do something about it.

That is specifically goes out to all the people who ***** and moan about the whole thing but know nothing about what its like.

You try holding a bloody 19 year old kid in your arms covered in his blood trying to keep him from dying who has severe trauma and shrapnel wounds to the face and neck. You off load your dead buddy to put him in a body bag to send him home, YOU write a letter to those kids parents, those kids whose lives YOU were responsible for. YOU pull a burnt to a crisp charred body out of a truck of a soldier you never met... until you do anything near that, just dont talk trash.....if you only knew all the stuff i have seen, all the mental scars, the thoughts and tears that come over after a few too many, the mental problems... the bad dreams

I know it was our choice to do what we do, and your choice not to have the balls to do it, so until you experience it dont talk ****, It was not our choiuce to go to IRAQ it was an order given by our Commander in Chief, I dont always agree with him but i must do as he says... and would i vote for him again....
Yes, the Clinton administration is why the number of personell is so screwed up and why there are so many repeat deployments to IRAQ.

That is my 2 Cents,
i know there are alot of vets wether war or peacetime here and they have all my respect, then there are the guys who support us and there are a few on here like OHIOYJ and ZachV and lots of others who support us no matter what, even though they never served and they would never purposley do anything to diss offend or talk trash about a servicemember active or prior

I Edited this post 5 times now, cuz my first few attempts were blatant personal attacks, so i finally came to more of a generalized response

Here is a Poem/ Letter i wrote to my 1 year old daughter that i will give her when she can understand, i wrote this on Veterans day last year dead drunk and full of thoughts and emotions....


Why daddy cries when he drinks (Veterans Day Nov 11 2006)

The other day my daughter came up to me and said
“Daddy why do you cry when you drink?”
Such innocence in a mad, mad world
How do I explain
How do I tell her
About the places I been,
The people I’ve seen
How much they hated me,
Hated what I was, hated what I stood for,
The bullets that came so close,
The noise, the smoke, the unknowing, the will tomorrow’s come,
The things I’ve done,
The men I’ve killed,
How close they came to getting me,
How close she was, to never was
I sat her on my knee and said
I cry for the fallen,
I cry for the forgotten,
I cry for those that never came back
And the families who gave up their loved one
The ones who paid their dues,
Much more than they should have,
The ones who gave all for us,
My many friends that didn’t come home,
The kid’s blood I was covered in.
I tell her about the dreams,
The nightmares,
Her daddy’s reality
How I can never forget
No matter how hard I try
What else can I tell a little girl
It’s more than she should ever know,
More than she should ever have to hear,
Something I hope she doesn’t have to go through,
But my tears and nightmares I live today
But it’s a small price to pay
For my family to be free
So as I try to push away the dreams,
Forget about the truth,
A past that haunts me always
As impossible as it seems
I look at her and smile and tell her not to worry,
Daddy will always be there,
…….If he can just stay away from war…..

[JeepDiver]

I don't support the way Bush has handled the situation. I also don't support the way the war is being ran. Sometime between WWII and Nam, the American people decided that their was a nicer way to win a war than blowing the ever loving **** out of your enemy, and anyone else stupid enough to stand in the way.

We are never going to win in Iraq, playing the games we are playing. You have to pound the **** out of the general population, so they stop supporting the enemy, and help you kill them instead of looking the other way and doing nothing. You also have to make the enemy aware, they have no chance to win, and if they want anything left of their homeland then they better throw up the white flag. When you have men, women and kids all willing to blow you along with themselves up, then there are no innocent civilians over there. When a solider says stop, and they don't you put one between the eyes I don't care who it is.

I support the troops over there, I don't have any real problem about why we went there, but I don't support the leaders getting our people killed just so they can look like nice guys who aren't hurting innocent people.

If your going to fight a war, fight to win, not to just hold ground.

[BigMudder]

Very well said JeepDiver, you did make alot of great points.

[squareface]

Just have a question for mrbbna or other vets or those serving now...does it affect you that there are so many Americans who think you're doing your job for nothing, that what you're doing is wrong, and that you should leave? I support you guys, I also support the President, I supported the war when it began, and I'm not going to stop supporting it becuase it's taking so long, I don't think we should leave. But as was side, I don't know what it's like, I don't think it's because I didn't have the balls but for different reasons, next month I'll find out if I get hired by a PD, which is what I want to do to serve. All I know is how thankful I am for those troops out there, who volunteered to protect us so we can be safe and not have to go through the horrors they endure.
Sorry that's long and it didn't really answer the original question!

[BigMudder]

X 2

[deltasmp]

To mrbeerbaitnammo, first and foremost thanks for the service.

As for your post, I have volunteered for and am awaiting orders from my agency to go to either Iraq or Afghanistan. I have no idea if/when I will go; that's being held up somewhere in the nether regions of my headquarters. These tasking requests come from the Pentagon and it isn't to sing "kumbaya" with the local orphanage. So direct your personal attacks somewhere else- not only am I willing, I have already volunteered.

P.S. In case you are wondering, I no longer post personal information (full name, employment, duty location, etc) on the internet for security reasons, nor do I send that information to anyone that I can't verify the identy of. I have removed any specific reference to that information that I've been able to remember or find (its always possible that something is still out there) and I've done it in regards to specific threat information. So it won't be posted here.

[KG4KPG]

I have been to Iraq twice now and I'm sure I'll see it again before all is said and done. I believe in the cause of freedom and our mission in Iraq. Deplomacy does nothing. For 12 years after Desert Stoem Iraq did what it wanted and the UN did nothing. While we sit by talking, the enemy looks for ways to exploit it. Look at the Japanese and how they got us in to WW2. I will agree, the war could be managed better, the media needs to be taken off the battlefield, Rules of Engagement need to be fixed to let the soldiers fight they way they need to. Our country tries too hard to be sensitive to the needs of the enemy, while they do what they want to us. People are saying they support the troops then go to an anti-war rally. Give me a break. Just spit on us when we come home, it's just the same to me. I'll go wherever I'm told for whatever reason they want. I don't allow politics to determine how I act in uniform. I knew what I was doing so you will never see me asking why the hell are we here or there. I do what I'm told.

[Rick Hallman]

I thankfully haven't had the order of being deployed to Iraq, which is freeeeeeeking lucky being my USAR job profile of 68W. But i an atest, that the guys going over there, made a conscious choice to help a people in need. I'd be over there too, but I'm sitting here waiting to be activated. So thus, you see me vanish, that's where I am, being a heart breaker and lifesaver. And to hit up KG4... yeah, politics dont apply in the uniform, you do your job, whether it be shelling from a Howitzer or doing triage for a med-evac.

To hit points earlier:
Agree on removing media. Media has no purpose in the thick. The ROEs need to be refined to allow the troops to do what they need to do.

And I agree with beerandbait up there. The Clinton Administration had lots of chances to grease this problem now. be it not cutting troops, to waxing Osama and a Foreign Minister in the 90s. Lots of the current problems can be blamed on the previous administration, just as they can be to the current.

Gah, I'm gonna go bury my head in the sand now for a while, wait for my Quadratec parts and get back to a less stressful topic.... like wheelin'. smile.gif

SUPPORTING THE TROOPS MEANS SUPPORTING THEIR CAUSE.

[Tonka]

From the start, I have been behind the use of force when Saddam was not in compliance with multiple resolutions (not that I wished he continued to be defiant) and the UN could not do the job it was entrusted to complete. It is great that we can help them with their infrastructure and show them how to take care of themselves. I just wish this could be done a bit quicker so there is no debate on the issue.

[Cromwell]

I agree 150 percent with both mrbeerbaitnammo and KGK4PG as someone that has spent several years in the service of which many were spent living and working in third world or for the PC people underprivileged nations we as a nation do a lot for the countries we are in but the only thing the ever seems to make the news is when something bad happens. What about the schools we assist in rebuilding, or the infrastructure. We as a democracy have the right to our views and a right to speak them. However, what we all have realize is that a military force is a tool that causes destruction and when used in a way that hinders that function is when problems arise. In war there is no way to have a nice war. So we have to take the good and the bad. What makes WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, and the current conflict different nothing other than the fact that three of them had sever restrictions placed on the use of the military. As our history shows when we use all out force to defeat an enemy we use equal force to rebuild those nations. So do I support our troops HELL YES. Do I support our policy sometimes but and when I don’t I do it with my right to vote. In my opinion protesting only causes knee jerk reactions which cause more problems.

As mrbeerbaitnammo said I edited this several times and hopefully it comes across as a complete view.

Tony

[Ben Crawford]

I agree with JeepDiver. We managed to kick Japan's hind end in WWII with the use of two nuclear weapons. Those bombs surely killed thousands of innocent women, men, and children. How innocent were they actually? They were the enemy, and they supported the enemy. The war on that front was ended, just like that. In WWII, there was no bull****. No doplomatic strategy and peaced talks and such. I wasn't around at the time, but I am going to guess that there wasn't even protesting of the war like there is now. I do think that we need to cut out the "nice" treatment that we have. I would say we should come in and say get out of the way or get dead. I support the troops, and I support the war. I believe that the war is neccessary to prevent further acts of terrorism on the homefront, and to expell certain evil dictators like Saddam. I agree with some in saying that there needs to be a different strategy on the war, since the course we are running now isn't working so well.


MrBeerBaitnAmmo: I haven't served, and I won't serve, because I can't serve. Some people have disablilties that they were born with that limits their acceptance into the armed forces. I was born hearing impaired. Believe me, if I could have served, I would have joined right after High School graduation.

[mrbeerbaitnammo]

Originally posted by Ben Crawford:
I agree with JeepDiver. We managed to kick Japan's hind end in WWII with the use of two nuclear weapons. Those bombs surely killed thousands of innocent women, men, and children. How innocent were they actually? They were the enemy, and they supported the enemy. The war on that front was ended, just like that. In WWII, there was no bull****. No doplomatic strategy and peaced talks and such. I wasn't around at the time, but I am going to guess that there wasn't even protesting of the war like there is now. I do think that we need to cut out the "nice" treatment that we have. I would say we should come in and say get out of the way or get dead. I support the troops, and I support the war. I believe that the war is neccessary to prevent further acts of terrorism on the homefront, and to expell certain evil dictators like Saddam. I agree with some in saying that there needs to be a different strategy on the war, since the course we are running now isn't working so well.


MrBeerBaitnAmmo: I haven't served, and I won't serve, because I can't serve. Some people have disablilties that they were born with that limits their acceptance into the armed forces. I was born hearing impaired. Believe me, if I could have served, I would have joined right after High School graduation. That i know you have told us that before i guess my statement should have been more of able body, i respect your situation, you wanted to and tried to but were unable due to circumstances that are out of your control, i know there are always exceptions

[BigMudder]

Oh and I also would have joined as well, but I got a full ride scholarship and there was no way I was ever gonna give that up after all the hard work I put in. And I could have made it with no problem, im in great physical shape. I respect you for all your service for our country, but you make it sound like just because we dont havent served the U.S. military that we cant have an opinion, which is crap.

[Tonka]

Originally posted by Cromwell:
What makes WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, and the current conflict different nothing other than the fact that three of them had sever restrictions placed on the use of the military.I believe that part of the anti-war movement has to do with the a realization of the power of distruction when reaching the nuclear age. But that is only part of it.

Originally posted by Cromwell:
As mrbeerbaitnammo said I edited this several times and hopefully it comes across as a complete view. Don't think that I did not have multiple re-drafts myself. I can see this has struck a nerve with mrbeerbaitnammo as well as other (vetern) service personnel so I am not micro-judge their postings too critically and do more listening from the front lines than spreading personal opinion.

[mrbeerbaitnammo]

Honestly Tonka sometimes thats all us Vets want... is just someone who will listen, its really hard to describe something like that to someone who hasnt been there.. ya know, its not so much that it struck a nerve but its just the Been there Done that thing, so i feel that i have a deeper understanding than those who have not. I am Big Advocate on Veterans, im sure that has showed several times on the BB. But i do also have a respect for those who serve their country in other ways like our resident Policemen on here B1PIG, and YZERGOD, yes i said YZERGODeven though sometimes he gets on my nerves me and him can maturely talk out our differences as we have a few times in the past, but we still have a respect for each other for our different views and services to our country....
Speaking of YZER where the hell has he been?

[Cromwell]

But More Beer your still Army... :D tongue.gif tongue.gif graemlins/aaa.gif

Tony

[Tonka]

Originally posted by mrbeerbaitnammo:
Speaking of YZER where the hell has he been? He might be out enjoying his new TJ.

[gb1194]

My 2 cents worth...I quess some guys are just trying to say they fully support our troops, but are pissed off in the way the politicians are running the war. If politicians would let our Armed Forces do what they are so good at, then this war would have been over a long time ago. Bottom line is you gotta love'em and you gotta pray for them until they're all home safe.

And for the record, I never served either. But I gave them something more important than me. My son is in the USMC,the 3/8. I believe that gives me a right to any opinion I may have here.

[DrLewall]

TOO MANY RULES! We need to be 100 times more ruthless than the enemy! IT'S A FIGHT TO THE DEATH HERE!!!

[The Duke]

A few things here really get my dander up.

1. People like Cindy Sheehan. Your kid was in the military. What does she think the military is? The boy scouts? The military is there to fight wars. People die in wars.

2. People who join the military for a free ride through school. If you can't accept the fact that you are joining the military and you could be shipped out PAY FOR SCHOOL YOURSELF .

3. People who think that world peace really could happen and think that peace is the answer to every problem.


First off I fully support our troops and their cause as well as the President. I am not in the service and would not enlist because I do not support the current overall direction of the government and have not for several decades, though I do support this war. HOWEVER, should a draft ever be instated, I would be among the first to enlist.

I can't stand people like Cindy Sheehan who act the way she has when her son was killed during a WAR. If she didn't want him to be in the military she should have paid for his schooling.

ROE needs to be changed. I believe that it would be better to lose 1 life of the people we are trying to help than 3 of our soldiers. Don't make our boys jobs harder than they already are. We are too nice to the enemy.

Think about it this way. In WWII we dropped nukes on thousands of "innocent" civilians. But it won us the war and saved thousands of American lives. We need to be MORE concerned with saving Americans lives in Iraq than the enemys. If we are at war we need to put the full resources of the nation into it.

Anti-war rallys are made up of hippies who haven't the intellect to realize WHY we are at war here. If we are passive this country will come to an end sooner than any of us think.

My personal opinion is that this nation is going down-hill and fast. We have begun to be infiltrated by the enemy and we don't even try to stop it. Just stop and look at the laws. There are laws all over making it ILLEGAL to say anything against muslims. I don't see them having any laws saying they can't bash the US. Whether or not people want to admit it, we are really at war with the muslims. Sure there are some who don't agree with the over all actions of there fellow musilms, but for the most part they do.
Within 100-150 years the US will have absolutely no freedom left. People will begin looking elsewhere for the basic freedoms allowed by the constitution. The past few years since 9/11 have really opened my eyes and I have begun to realize that by the time I'm 80 or 90(should I live that long) there will be no freedom of speech or religion, and more of our basic right will be severely violated.

Kinda rambling here so, I'll stop now. I get very worked up when I see how stupid our polititions are smile.gif

http://home.wi.rr.com/kaufmart/pics/support.jpg

[JeepDiver]

Just because someone doesn't enlist and go overseas, doesn't mean they don't get an opinion. I thought about joining, and then decided that I would rather go to school, party for 4 or 5 years and get my Computer Science degree.

For the last 10 years, I've been writing software that is used by every Branch of the service, to help them get aircraft safely over the target, and make sure the bomb hits where it is needed. So while I've never put on the uniform, I defiantly do my part to help the guys and gals that do get the job done with as much lethal precision as possible.

I'm damned proud of the fact that the software I worked on has helped our guys find safe escape routes, and put the bombs on targets daily.