Air Intake Systems and Throttle Body Spacers

[txboy1967]

Can anyone give me their opinion on Air Intake Systems and Throttle Body Spacers, please?

I want to put them on to get a little more horsepower/torque but do not know anything about them and do not know if they are worth the $250...

4 Wheel Drive Hardward is offering, if you buy the air intake you get the tbs for free.

[Ckb69]

What year / engine are you running?
The more displacement you have , the more gains are possible from any given mod .

TBS = waste of money . IMO
K&N type intakes = minor gains at the expense of possible water ingestion and DEFINATE excessive wear issues .

This is because the way they work is to INCREASE the size of the openings in the filter to increase airflow , thereby letting dust into your engine that the stock filter would have caught .

How much wear is dependant on the conditions you drive and wheel in .
If you see a lot of dusty trails and roads , it will be a bigger concern , obviously .

How much potential longevity are you willing to sacrifice for some minor short term increases in output ?

From a longevity standpoint , the best way to increase airflow without sacrificing filtration is a much larger filter element .
This you do not see , as underhood space is very precious in Jeeps

[b1pig]

any air intake replacement will usually net a few ponies due to cleaning up the intake track. the factory tubing has ribs in it to compensate for movement... but this makes the air more turbulent. what you choose in the end depends on what you like... the design... filter... color or material... etc...

I have a K&N system. it is LOUD. Mudjocky said he could hear it when I gunned it.... and he was in his JK ahead of me. :D

i also agree that a TB Spacer is a waste of money. they are remnants of the carbuerator erra. The spacers were designed to both insulate the carb from the intake (keeps the fuel in the bowl cooler) and added an extra bit of time to allow the fuel to atomize with the air better before entering the cylinder.

with current TPI systems, it is a waste. Fuel is injected at the intake valve..... so the benefits are nill.

[AdventureBob]

I really hate internet rumors...
Please show me a case, properly documented where a K&N has failed and then been ingested. K&N can point to "less than a handful of cases in racing conditions."
Water Injesiton? WTFATA? Theres no more risk of water injesiton with a K&N than there is with a stock filter. Longevity tradeoff? I've had my K&N in the grand for 180K miles with no issues and in the wrangler for 60K.
Going to a cone filter gives you more area of flow withour sacrificing space.

[b1pig]

bob, there is more signifigant risk of water ingestion over an airbox design. the TJ Volant intake uses and airbox aith a larger opening, air tube and a cone filter... which is the best combination. the factory airbox uses a snokel that pulls air from the upper front corner of the hood on the TJ and JK models. behind the headlight of the XJ and ZJ. factory airboxes are practically immune from water splashes.

cone filters... even with a sheild are still susceptible to it. I have had the one in Lori's Tahoe wet and it dies affect the engine, as water gets into the intake. That is why I am hesitant to put the JK into the mud or water. some people are braver then others. smile.gif

oh... and i dont think there can be an way for a case to be "properly documented"..... not in the way you expect.

[rstarch345]

Don't discount the benefits of a TB spacer. The current advertised ones are more hype than value, but of the proper design and installation, a benefit can be had.

Using a 1" non-metallic spacer will net some additional low end torque as it allows more air volume into the plenum. Now the spacer by itself with a stock intake and exhaust will do little. The intake must be opened up as well as a free flowing exhaust.

Two problems with most of the underhood free flowing intake systems. Most use a metal tube to move the air from the filter to the TBI and the air is still drawn from under the hood. Even with a heat shield, the air into the filter is still plenty hot and the metal tube absorbes the ambient temperature from under the hood. No heat reduction.

The non metalic spacer helps isolate some of that heat as well as using a non metal tube to move the air from filter to TBI also helps reduce the heat.

I've been running the spacer on my '00 since '02 and would never think of removing it.

I'm not saying everyone should run out and buy a spacer, but I'm also saying they are not as worthless as some of you guys make them out to be. Like anything in this world, everything has it's place.

[Ckb69]

Originally posted by AdventureBob:
I really hate internet rumors...
Please show me a case, properly documented where a K&N has failed and then been ingested. K&N can point to "less than a handful of cases in racing conditions."
Water Injesiton? WTFATA? Theres no more risk of water injesiton with a K&N than there is with a stock filter. Longevity tradeoff? I've had my K&N in the grand for 180K miles with no issues and in the wrangler for 60K.
Going to a cone filter gives you more area of flow withour sacrificing space. I've HAD the freaking things come apart , and , several scored cylinder walls from it .
I'll give the devil his due and say that these failures were prcipitated by a cheap-ass owner who would not pony up the dough to by the pre-filters which would have prevented us from having to clean and re-oil each filter every week to 2 weeks .

This was a commercial go kart track , thwe karts ran slick tire , which resulted in a HUGE amount of tire smut .

For less than $50 the owner could have prevented over $1,000 worth of damage .
After the third failure I FINALLY convinced the fool where to spend his money , in this particular instance .

Now as I have stated previously , YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY .
The cone filters have a larger area , but, they mount on the end of a tube and sit out in the open , unshielded from any water splashing from below .
Hydrolocked engines are not fun !

Also , the filter element material in most of these tends to have larger openings than the typical paper element filters .
The difference may be minor , but , WILL lead to increased wear , over time .
In most conditions , driving on blacktop roads , you may not see any real difference .

If you operate in extremeley dusty environments , you can expect a considerable amount of extra wear on your valves , cylinder wals , piston rings , and , piston skirts .

Is this BS ?

Consider this :
Outboard boat motors do not have air filters , yet , they will last 25 - 50 years , or more , with proper maintenance .
Why?
Not much dust out on the lake .. ;)

[Knuckelhead]

IMO the spacer is worthless on an EFI motor.
Any after market air filter that requires oil treatment will allow oil clumped dust impregnated particles into the intake...

[b1pig]

Originally posted by rstarch345:
Don't discount the benefits of a TB spacer. The current advertised ones are more hype than value, but of the proper design and installation, a benefit can be had.

Using a 1" non-metallic spacer will net some additional low end torque as it allows more air volume into the plenum. Now the spacer by itself with a stock intake and exhaust will do little. The intake must be opened up as well as a free flowing exhaust. exactly "how" does a spacer allow MORE air into the INTAKE RUNNERS. it's kinda like a 1 gallon milk jug.... can you really get another half gallon into it?

Originally posted by rstarch345:
Two problems with most of the underhood free flowing intake systems. Most use a metal tube to move the air from the filter to the TBI and the air is still drawn from under the hood. Even with a heat shield, the air into the filter is still plenty hot and the metal tube absorbes the ambient temperature from under the hood. No heat reduction.[/qbthe design priciple in an airtube intake is to provide a SMOOTH place for the air to travle and reduce the turblulence as much as possible. besides that, the most "COLD AIR INTAKES" come with some form of insulation in them. it's moot point anyway because many older intakes are heated by engine coolant... and the heat that the intake manifold itself gets... (particularly on inline engines with intake and exhaust on the same side) it makes little issue. the real point is mass, volume and smoothness.

Originally posted by rstarch345:
[QB] The non metalic spacer helps isolate some of that heat as well as using a non metal tube to move the air from filter to TBI also helps reduce the heat.again... insulates "what" from "what"
the original purpose and its gains is of little consequence here. a non-metalic spacer is best for insulating a carb ie: FUEL SOURCE from the heat of the engine.. because that heat can cause the fuel to become hot... eveporate and contribute to vapor lock.

its kinda like taking Tylenol for birth control.

Originally posted by rstarch345:
I've been running the spacer on my '00 since '02 and would never think of removing it.

I'm not saying everyone should run out and buy a spacer, but I'm also saying they are not as worthless as some of you guys make them out to be. Like anything in this world, everything has it's place. good for you.
now. they are NOT for everyone. infact the improvements are next nothing. i ran one on my ZJ for 6 months. the gas mileage (calculated by the odometer) got worse by 2 miles per gallon on average. it certainly dod not improve. I ran my gas mileage for one month prior to this, so i feel confident saying this.

also, the ZJ has a bored throttle body which removes the taper at the bottom. I matched it to the spacer... which was within a MM of matching the intake manifold. There were two other changes. there was now a whistle and the hesitation that used to be right off of idle was now at 1100 RPM. driveability did not improve. fuel mileage did not improve... and as a matter of fact JP magazine recently Dyno-tested several mods. one of the them was the TB spacer. i think they even agreed that it was pointless.

changing an intake alone will only net you a couple of ponies. the engine in it's simplest form is nothing more than an air pump. by making it more efficient at BOTH ends, you can see the best gains in efficiency and power.

i pulled the TB spacer off my ZJ and got my throttle response back.... dumped the whistle and my gas mileage went back to normal. I got it for $10 from a member here... and I gave it away.

i also should mention that the intent and purpose of intake improvements is to make a SMOOTH place for the air to flow. buying a TB spacer that has the "cool feature" of spinning the air isnt going to help. air is a fluid nature... and trying to spin it at the outside is nearly pointless. all you are doing is making the air turbulent which causes the air to tumble and kills performance.

after all... why would performance engine builders deburr intakes, port match and hone the intke and exhaust runners? to increase volume, yes... but to also provide a smooth route for the air to flow. ;)

[b1pig]

also... so it is definitely clear.

a TB spacer is one of those things that may help or it may not. it may not do anything or it could even hurt performance or efficiency.

[AdventureBob]

So what you’re telling me is the failure was caused by a user who failed to follow recommended cleaning procedures??? The filter became plugged and then failed after continued use? These failures can hardly be blamed on the product or the company. Touting them as such makes it sound like these things are just failing left and right. My diesel has much higher intake velocity, 650 HP, and the K&N is doing just fine and I’m not worried one bit about it. The failure was obviously such that the user failed to contact K&N because they don’t have it in their warrantee data. So this is a lot like a lot of the other "I saw it stories"...when you push the person who had the failure you find that it wasn’t properly maintained, or they were using it wrong, or oh I love this one it was the cheaper imitation version of the product and not the brand name version.

Pig, your right, the stock air box is great for water issues. But I don’t think you can say the risk is “significant” Yes there is more risk of water being splashed onto a cone filter than a stock box but come on, the statement as presented leads the uniformed to think you can’t drive a jeep in the rain if you put one of these on.

As for a smooth intake, it is irrelevant: there’s a fluid dynamics property called the speed of laminar airflow. In an intake this principle takes over and the little ridges in the intake and throttle body spacer become irrelevant.

[rstarch345]

Originally posted by b1pig:
also... so it is definitely clear.

a TB spacer is one of those things that may help or it may not. it may not do anything or it could even hurt performance or efficiency. Wow and I thought I was opinionated. Sorry you feel that way.

I guess being an ol’ fart using TB spacers and air management in low performance FI vehicles to help them “get just a bit more” since the early ‘80s has been a waste of time.

If you really read my comments, I never once mentioned anything about spacer swirls being of value.

Sorry, I’m not going to get into nit picking comments, deaf ears and all ya know.

[Knuckelhead]

Originally posted by AdventureBob:
In an intake this principle takes over and the little ridges in the intake and throttle body spacer become irrelevant.As does the use of an after market air intake and throttle body spacer on port injected motors. Both are a waste of money...

[b1pig]

Originally posted by AdventureBob:
As for a smooth intake, it is irrelevant: there’s a fluid dynamics property called the speed of laminar airflow. In an intake this principle takes over and the little ridges in the intake and throttle body spacer become irrelevant. i'd wager to say you are misguided here.
the fact is that the ridges or ribs in an intake can and do affect the ability of air to travel smoothly in the tube. without going into too much detail, the study of laminar airflow over or through anything refers to that layer of air at it's surface. the layer of air at the surface tends to have little motion... however things at the surface can disrupt that layer and cause turbulence. these things can be as fine as dust... so when you compare that in relation to the size of the ribs in some intakes, then yea... i'd say it is relevant.

i dont know who has the deaf ears around here... :rolleyes:

the original post asked for opinions. whether or not we agree with eachother's opinons is no big deal. we may even learn something out of it.

[Goofatyerservice]

I have the AEM brute force and I noticed a difference.

[Mudjocky]

I run the Airaid system and I just put their TBS on my JK and I didnt notice anything off the bat...but on the highway climbing a hill I noticed that the engine didnt 'bog' down as much and didnt need to downshift. So I took it off and hit the same hill again...bogged down and down shifted. Put it back on and hit it AGAIN and it didnt bog down and didint down shift. I would assume though that this probably wouldnt be as noted on the manuals as the auto's. Just my two cents.