Big 3 Bailout

[tjmudjeeper]

My rational side tells me to let the Big 3 bail themselves out but I really think that we should lobby to, at the very least, save the Jeep brand. Nonetheless, it is going to be interesting to see what this all leads to.

BTW...I am still burying ammunition in the pastures for a "what if"

[Tonka]

I would like to make $75/hour. I would also like to make $43/hr just like the line workers at Toyota. Currently, I work for near half that and have a college degree. No wonder the UAW likes their members. :rolleyes:

When I heard that the executives flew on their own private planes to Washington with their hands out and having no plan, I wondered how stupid can they get. If I were a committee member, I would have had quite a few 4 letter words and strong euphanisums (sp?) to openly describe their character, tell the head chairman that my vote is "no" and walk out. Upon the exects returning to Washington, DC in their own "eco-vehicles", I would further criticize them for not CARPOOLING. :mad:

[JeepBSU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7SKTheO2k&feature=related

I can't find the exact video but the daily show was making fun of the congressional hearings were the execs flew in on their private jets, but this shows some of the questions being asked

[loaf]

Upon the exects returning to Washington, DC in their own "eco-vehicles", I would further criticize them for not CARPOOLING. :mad:

I don't think it was just one executive per vehicle. They probably had an assistant or two with them. just nitpicking....

[Tonka]

I don't think it was just one executive per vehicle. They probably had an assistant or two with them. just nitpicking....

I was going for the irony in addition to being a PIA for them.

Figure on how it would go....

Chrysler's vice chairman, Jim Press; "I'll drive".
General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner; "No, I'll drive".
Ford's Executive Chairman William Clay Ford, Jr; "No, I'll drive"....

One hour later....

Chrysler's vice chairman, Jim Press; "I'll drive!"
General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner; "No, I'll drive!!!!"
Ford's Executive Chairman William Clay Ford, Jr; "No, I'll drive!!!!!!"

[MIJeep]

I would ask the congressmen when was the last time they spent their own money on an airline ticket instead of using our tax dollars for some vacation or flying on one of the aircraft in the 1st airwing for "official" business. hypocrites!!

I'm in a little different position on this one because it directly affects my job but I didn't have a problem with the private jets, that's just the way business is done now, and being that one of the big three brings their aircraft to my company for maintenance I want them flying those planes alot as well as every other corporation that comes to our facility.

If the fallout would end with just Ford, Chrysler and GM I would want to see them fail but it trickles down to all the factories in our hometowns that make some little widgit for those cars. I think if even one of them fails it's gonna have a horrible ripple effect.

[Jason Clark]

We have done quite well with out Hudson, Tucker, Studebaker, AMC and Willys for several years. We will manage just fine without Ford, Chrysler, and GM. The best part about them closing down is now maybe some of the backyard mechanics that have been trying to get their ideas out for years will get some attention.

UAW shoulders some blame here as well. By "negotiating" for higher wages and benefits, manufacturers have been forced to produce an inferior product at an ever increasing price for many years.

The dog and pony show that the execs put on by returning to DC in their hybrid cars is an insult. They get their collective behinds handed to them by the panel for flying in so they come back in an "eco-car"? They take us as fools. To think that they care about the auto industry any further than the paycheck is ludicrous. The eco-car stunt is a show for fools.

The technology for reliable and economically priced cars has been out there for years. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda have been at it for a long time. GM, Ford and Chrysler on the other hand have stuck to their guns and built gas guzzling bohemoths and have done nothing to move in a direction that the rest of the world has seen coming for years. I admit that Americans share in that blame because we have bought these gas hogs with little or no argument, that is until it hit our wallets a few months ago. Americans are fickle.

I would hate to see the American manufacturers go, but if that is what it takes to bring some sense to the auto industry then so be it.

[tater'sTJ]

I think if even one of them fails it's gonna have a horrible ripple effect.


Not to mention all the dealerships, service centers, ad agencies that make the car commercials, tire manufacturers, all the tax money those car companies pay, the retiree's whose benefits are suddenly gone...
If the big three (or even one of them) goes out of business, it WILL be catastrophic. It will ripple out to every American. I don't understand why the auto industry is less deserving of a bailout than the banks.

[tater'sTJ]

We have done quite well with out Hudson, Tucker, Studebaker, AMC and Willys for several years. We will manage just fine without Ford, Chrysler, and GM.

But they didn't all go out of bussiness at the same time, or within a close few years of each other, and most of those companies got bought out by larger ones. The jobs were still there.

[tater'sTJ]

I would hate to see the American manufacturers go, but if that is what it takes to bring some sense to the auto industry then so be it.


I agree, but the problem here is wouldn't just affect the auto industry.

[Jason Clark]

But they didn't all go out of bussiness at the same time, or within a close few years of each other, and most of those companies got bought out by larger ones. The jobs were still there.

True, but there are still auto manufacturers here in the States. Plenty enough to satisfy our needs. Subaru, Honda, and BMW for starters. Not to mention that if the Americans decide to close up, many of these manufacturers would be absorbed by other existing manufacturers. Just because it wouldn't be run by Ford doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to buy a Ford. Means that Ford would be owned by someone else...say Japan? Germany? France? Italy? Great Brittan?

Just because the companies go bankrupt doesn't mean they would be gone. There would be some job loss (collateral damage), but to recoup some of their losses, they would sell off brands (Saturn, Jeep) and perhaps even some models (Viper, Corvette).

[tater'sTJ]

But bottom line is a lot of working class Americans would lose their jobs. I don't care so much about the corporations themselves, the big guys have their million dollar corp. parachutes and tax shelters. I'm more concerned with blue collar, working class job loss.

Another problem these auto companies have is their employees (the ones who need jobs) are making too much money. It's ridiculous that these assembly guys get paid $30+ to drop a bolt in a whole. Cutting some wages there too would save them a lot. Making less money is better than making no money. but they can't do that because it's against union rules. I don't think cutting wages in and of it's self would fix the problem, but coupled with cutting the white collar million dollar bonuses and some other cut backs, they could lower the prices of the vehicles and stimulate some sales. Then maybe they wouldn't have to worry about a government handout... I mean bailout.

[Jason Clark]

I agree, but the problem here is wouldn't just affect the auto industry.

You are right. The auto industry can't make all of the parts that they install on their cars, and have to out source to other manufacturers. The loss of one manufacturer would be disruptive to some suppliers and out right destructive to others. Perhaps having other outlets for their goods would be a good idea? Perhaps it is time for them to re-tool as well?

So if we all go out and buy battery cars and the oil industry starts to crumble are we to bail them out too? I mean we have bailed out the banks, and now the auto industry. Who's next? Step in line for Federal money.

[tater'sTJ]

So if we all go out and buy battery cars and the oil industry starts to crumble are we to bail them out too? I mean we have bailed out the banks, and now the auto industry. Who's next? Step in line for Federal money.


I also agree. It does have to stop somewhere. I'm not sure a federal bailout of the auto industry is the way to go. But I think it would be more or as beneficial as the banking bailout. As I said before, if these auto manufacturers would step back and take a look, I think they could turn themselves around without government intervention, but they can't because the unions say they have pay their employees ridiculous wages, and if they ***** and moan enough big brother will come make it all better.

I don't disagree really with anything you've said, I just think the fallout would be far worse than most people realize.

[Cory4OU]

I'm next! I took the girl out on a date tonight, should've gone to McDonalds but i chose Quizznos instead. I knew I was gonna be hurting later on, but I heard my buddies had gotten a line of credit at a super super cheap rate funded by everyone else. So is there any way i could borrow some money like my buddy? Just for a bit, just to bridge this gap for a second.

[tater'sTJ]

I'm next! I took the girl out on a date tonight, should've gone to McDonalds but i chose Quizznos instead.


dude, you took a girl to Quizznos on a date? I guess you didn't want to take her on a second date? :p:lmao:

[Cory4OU]

You must not know much about the girls in my area...

[JeepBSU]

That steak and cheese sandwich is a skirt lifter!

[tater'sTJ]

:lmao: :rotfl:

[Cory4OU]

Yeah, sorry it was a weak comparison, but i'm not all about the bailout. Totally understand the impact of the loss of jobs, but why should i pay for a portion of "Captain Joe's Fish Shack" loan from the fed gov't just because he was spending too much on lobster?

[Jason Clark]

I don't disagree really with anything you've said, I just think the fallout would be far worse than most people realize.

You are correct. The fallout is as destructive as the bomb its self...just in a different way. With the detonation of the bomb (auto industry failure) we will witness an imediate destruction (union workers looking for a job, and a lot of families with out an income source). The fallout would be widespread by other support industries loosing income and employees as a result. Painful, yes, but not completely devistating. People will ultimately find work. May not be what they want or are used to. Certainly won't be paid what they have been, but they will recover. Their lifestyles will be crippled from what they have become accustomed.

I have said for a long time that Unions would be the demise of this country. More than any politian could hope for. Unions served a purpose seventy five years ago, but they have long outlived that purpose.

[Jason Clark]

Yeah, sorry it was a weak comparison, but i'm not all about the bailout. Totally understand the impact of the loss of jobs, but why should i pay for a portion of "Captain Joe's Fish Shack" loan from the fed gov't just because he was spending too much on lobster?

And that is exactly my point. Where does it stop? McDonalds? Kelloggs? Home Depot? The local dry cleaners?

The only people being taken to the cleaners is us. We are the ones footing this bill. Both with the banks and now with the auto manufacturers. Americans emailed, telephoned, and snail mailed Washington like never before when the banks needed bailing out, yet that didn't stop Congress from printing up 700 billion dollars and divvying that up like cards at a blackjack table.

[tater'sTJ]

The problem is the whole situation is FUBAR. There's no good easy way out. I think it's a "lesser of two evils" type situation... want some more euphanisims :D

[Cory4OU]

OH! easy solution! Just email and petition to your congressman!/Woman? They'll handle it for us! Isn't that how everything works?

[OhioYJ]

Between the UAW and the goverment, they are to blame for a lot of problems the auto industry is having. What about all the regulations, and cafe standards placed on the big three? Heck anymore how many cars do they really make here in the states? Out of the three, I believe Ford makes the most vehicles here in the US. Anymore if you want an american made vehicle, you better be buying a Honda, Subaru, or Toyota.

I'm not for bailing out anyone, I wasn't for the bail out for the banks either. While the banks where to blame for the situation they where in, they where pressured by the democrats in many ways to act that way.

No one has brought up the fact that we have bailed out Chrysler before? Crysler did repay the "loan" and it sort of worked, but come on Chrysler has been a slowly dieing name brand for a while in my opinion. They've only slightly been revived by the sales gimick of "hemi" even though half the people buying them have no idea what "hemi" means, or the fact that other manufacturers have made hemi motors as well.

The big three, need to finally admit, to be competitive, some of the goverment standards need to be lifted, and they need to declare bankruptcy, so they can declare their UAW contracts void, restructure, and open back up without the unionized workers.

[OhioYJ]

yet that didn't stop Congress from printing up 700 billion dollars and divvying that up like cards at a blackjack table.

And who gave them permission to decide which private businesses live or die?

[Cory4OU]

Us! Through our elected representatives! Right?

[Cromwell]

You all failed to mention that WE THE CONSUMER HAVE THE BIGGER THE BETTER mentality. Why else would a single person want or need a fullsize 5000lb big block what ever to drive to work in a office enviroment in a city...

As for some of the foreign companies named above I know Ford owns Mazda and I believe Chevy owns part of Nissan. We as Americans do not WANT to get rid of our gas guzzlers. We may ***** and complain but in all honesty how many of you are willing to give up entirely your gas guzzlers? And for the ones they say well they have done it in Europe and the rest of the world. They lifestyle is totally different than ours. For one thing grocery shopping in Europe usuall is done every couple of days compaired with us doing large shopping once or twice a month. Also Europeans to not tend to drive nearly as much as we do. So until we are ready to change our lifestyle we will never convince automakers to actually make the vehicles we wish for.

[JeepBSU]

If the American Consumer still wanted a bigger is better gas guzzler why are they failing than?
I agree 10-15 years ago, everyone had a suburban, truck, or whatever and many people still do to this day (we all here drive gas guzzlers) but for the most part the american consumer has been moving to more fuel efficient vehicles. When I am in Seattle or any other major city, for the most part I see sedans and commuter vehicles. Why do you think some of the largest truck dealerships are in the middle of nowhere places? Even here in Idaho we have HUGE GM, Ford, and Chevy truck dealerships because in a small town in the middle of nowhere population 40,000 most people drive a truck!
I admit the consumers bought the gas guzzlers, but they certainly aren't the reason detroit is where it is now, that would be because of a failure to adapt to a changing market. There will always be a need for trucks and suv's just not on a mass scale like we saw a few years ago. You yourself drive a gas guzzling barn on wheels and I do too, it's a choice I made. Many jeepers on here own commuter cars, and even over on pirate most of the guys' jeeps are trailer rigs. I myself plan to get a cheap commuter car in the next year or two, not only for gas but for projects as well.
Why are the Camry, Accord, Sentra, Civic, Corrola, and Prius all selling so well? If Americans were still hooked on gas guzzling Hummers these cars would not be selling so well.

[tater'sTJ]

The big three, need to finally admit, to be competitive, some of the goverment standards need to be lifted, and they need to declare bankruptcy, so they can declare their UAW contracts void, restructure, and open back up without the unionized workers.


That's kinda the point I was trying to make earlier about the auto manufacturers helping themselves instead of relying on the government bailout. You worded it better than I did. The unions have killed the auto industry.

On the local news here this morning they interviewed a woman who has worked at the GM plant here (there's also a Ford factory here) for 27 yrs. who said there is no way the auto companies could get themselves out of trouble, and there was no way they should expect any employees to take a cut in pay or benefits, because they've already had to lower their standards of living. This pissed me off. She was a single lady living in a half million dollar house (yes they showed the house, I know the area and worked houses there, I'm not exaggerating), with a $50,000 Tahoe in the driveway, but she was struggling to get by. Please! What happened to people earning money and living within their means instead of expecting their employer to pay them what they demand to buy the things they think they need? The attitude this woman displayed is the very attitude that has gotten this country in the bind it's in.
The more I hear some of these union reps. and autoworkers talk, the less and less I feel concern for them. They don't want to work, they want money for nothing. They don't seem to realize a lot of people right now would be happy to have a job making minimum wage right now, instead they can't get a job. And these pricks want to ***** because Ford wants to try to cut their wages from $32/hr to ONLY $20/hr? BE HAPPY YOU HAVE A JOB AT ALL!!! I hope they abolish the UAW. I'll be the first one in line at the Claycomo Ford plant to get a job for my measly $20/hr.

I'm not done, but I'll stop for now...

:soapbox:

[tjmudjeeper]

Dang as Joe Dirt would say...I guess I started a storm of crap....I believe the only way to get this great nation off of its knees is to pull at its bootstraps and stand on its own. I believe that everything and everyone...whether it is the banker, the car maker, the farmer, the crack addict on welfare and food stamps are going to have to be weened off of the teat and quick. We need stop borrowing money from China and the Middle East, for what? to give Baybay $500 worth of food stamps for the week? Bull crap!!! I work everyday. Do I like going to work? Heck no! Do I like to eat? Heck yes! More people need to get into this mentality and stop thinking that the government is going to care for them cradle to grave.